In this episode, Amber, Elaine and I continue our discussion on the disappearance of Center County, PA attorney Ray Gricar in 2005. We explore the theories and all the conflicting clues that may or may not have been a factor in him going missing.
Part 2 of 2. Please refer to prior episode for part 1 of our discussion.
Check us out on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@143mysteries
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Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/143PODCAST
One Minute and Forty-Three Seconds is dedicated to my number one fan. Thank you, Dad. I love you, and I miss you.
In this episode, Amber, Elaine and I continue our discussion on the disappearance of Center County, PA attorney Ray Gricar in 2005. We explore the theories and all the conflicting clues that may or may not have been a factor in him going missing.
Part 2 of 2. Please refer to prior episode for part 1 of our discussion.
Check us out on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@143mysteries
For sources and episode information: http://143mysteries.com
For photos: https://www.instagram.com/143mysteries/
Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/143PODCAST
One Minute and Forty-Three Seconds is dedicated to my number one fan. Thank you, Dad. I love you, and I miss you.
You're listening to One Minute and Forty-Three Seconds a true Unsolved Mysteries podcast, Episode 46, Part 2 of the Ray Greay Car Story. I did what kind of tea is it?
Speaker 2:Oh, I just finished just a regular black English breakfast tea and this one is peach. I bought a fruit tea variety pack.
Speaker 1:Very nice, but aren't you gonna? The caffeine doesn't keep you up at night, it was decaf, oh okay, and this one's decaf, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 2:I'm an old lady now, so I do drinking.
Speaker 1:Well, welcome back to the podcast, amber and Elaine. I'm really looking forward to continuing our discussion about Ray Greay Car, because it's just, you know, let's get your initial reactions of what you've heard so far about Ray. I'm just interested, before we get started with this new set of details, what your current thinking is, or just general reactions. Why don't we start with you, amber?
Speaker 3:I don't know. I want to. You said, great, I need to hear more. No, I don't know. I was thinking, maybe, but the ash in the car, what if somebody I'm interested in the black male theory Just because, like, maybe he googled how to destroy a hard drive because he had something on there and they didn't want the next person to know about it and so he looked it up at home and then they wanted to meet up with him to make sure that he did destroy the hard drive and then just decided that wasn't enough and like killed him or kidnapped him.
Speaker 1:That is a really really good theory, honestly, because it's like that's great, because it is seeming like people were saying that you know the sighting at the antique shop, that he was waiting for somebody, or it looked like he was going to meet somebody who's on his phone and you know the parking thing where he moved over, so like to make room for someone, the cigarette ash, all of that stuff. Like they could have had a discussion in that car, right. Yeah, that's a great. That's honestly a really interesting theory. Elaine, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:I am feeling like I think there's a high probability this is tied into his history with the Penn State scandal, Because we already know that there is. I don't know if it's just speculation that Penn State might have been covering this up and they knew that it was going on for a long time, or if there is some evidence of that, but either way, if he did try to find that evidence early on and it does seem likely, I mean it's pretty apparent that they were maybe not doing everything they could have done and maybe they were covering it up to some extent. So, yeah, I think that if someone thought that he had information that was going to ruin the Penn State guy's life I forget his name, the one who Jerry Sandusky Sandusky. Yeah, If there's information that was going to ruin Sandusky's life, which this obviously could, you would probably want to stop that.
Speaker 2:I think the Google history or search history of clearing the hard drive that could have just been related to him planning on retiring and he wanted to just get all his personal stuff off the computer. I don't know if that's necessarily related or not Interesting, and there could be. I mean, if he did date a lot of women and maybe he was meeting up with someone at that antique shop and maybe that's not related to his disappearance either. I don't know. I haven't fully thought this one through.
Speaker 1:There are a number of pathways you could take with this. Yeah, I feel like you could make a flow chart. You know how you could make those charts where you start with one thing and then there's an arrow pointing to one thing, and then an arrow pointing to one thing, and then, each way you go, there's three more arrows that you could take on a path. That's what I feel like is. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:There's a lot that might be related and stuff that might just be arbitrary.
Speaker 1:It's hard to tell? Yeah, it really is hard to tell. I mean, if you're making well, I'll touch on this more later but you could really make a point. If you're a good enough speaker and articulate person, you could really make an argument for a number of theories here. But should we dive back in? Yes, all right. First I want to talk to you about Right now I want to talk to you.
Speaker 1:We talked about the blackmail theory a little bit. I guess that should lead us back into raised finances. So allegedly he didn't have any retirement funds set up. You should have. Definitely that's what I've read he definitely should have had money, because the dude was probably making six figures. Right, yeah, but I read something like where he didn't have a ton of money saved up. Hmm, now his red mini Cooper that he drove all over the place, his girlfriend actually, that was his girlfriend's car. It was in her name. Oh yeah, he lived at his girlfriend's house. So it's unclear to me what his financial situation was, other than there was no activity on any of his accounts after his disappearance. Oh, but some people have theorized is there a private account somewhere? Sure, maybe.
Speaker 1:And that leads us in to did Ray walk away from his life and start a new one. Hmm, now, I know what you're thinking. I mean, everybody says that every single time. Actually, do you guys ever listen to? It was called Thinking Sideways, the podcast Mm-hmm, no, I haven't. There was one of the guys on there. It's really funny, and he was saying, like it's always a theory in these cases that something you know started a new life. You know it could be a three year old missing and they'll be like, well, we crawled away to start a new life. I always thought that was funny, but I mean, this is a very serious subject. But there is actually some strong I don't even I don't know if the evidence is even the right word, but I let's put it this way I am very intrigued by this evidence or this information, and I actually think this could be one of the cases where something he did, you know, start a new life. Oh, first I want to talk about Mel Wiley. Now, this is a case of a police chief who went missing and apparently Ray was obsessed with this case, mm. So Ray was really interested in the unsolved disappearance of this guy named Mel Wiley. Okay, now, mel Wiley, he was a police chief and he went missing in 1985 and he went missing from Hinkley Township, ohio. So I'm assuming this was of interest to Ray, because Ohio, he was born in Ohio, that's where he you know, he yeah. So anyway, apparently he was obsessed with this case around the time of this disappearance. So let's talk a little bit about Mel, just so you can understand this. He was the Hinkley and what I'm getting, where I'm getting this information, is from uncoveredcom.
Speaker 1:Mel served in the Army. He worked in intelligence. He was said to be a quiet, easy going guy. He loved his cats, which I love that for him. But he was also kind of isolated. He was married with 17, or for 17 years didn't have children. He got divorced from his wife in 1984, which after 17 years, that's. You know. That's sad, it's interesting. But interestingly enough, at the time of his disappearance Mel was actually in the process of writing a mystery novel. And this is so crazy because the mystery novel was about a homicide in Pennsylvania, which is where Ray huh. So I'm seeing why Ray found this interesting. But anyway, he loved, he loved San Francisco, he loved coffee, he had a favorite coffee shop, he loved trains, he loved music, he collected records. So let's get to this guy's Mel Mel's disappearance.
Speaker 1:He was last seen when he went on a date with his girlfriend in Hinkley Township Ohio and he hasn't been seen or heard from since. Subsequent events after he vanished is leading investigators to question whether he may have done this on purpose. Yeah, so Mel's car was found three days after he was last seen and it was found on or, I'm sorry, it was found at the Cleveland Lakefront State Park on Lake Erie. Inside of his car they found a shirt, belt, shoes, socks, his wallet with $15 in cash, credit cards, his police ID badge, suntan lotion and a towel. So the first theory that was brought up is that he went swimming and he drowned. He told a friend that he was going to be swimming that day, which makes sense based on where his car was found. Yeah, but interestingly enough he had a skin condition which he wasn't supposed to be in the sun and for that reason he always wore long sleeve shirts, no matter if it was hotter or not. So some people really raised their eyebrow at the notion that Mel went swimming.
Speaker 1:So another clue in September of 1985, authorities found a note, and the note had Greyhound bus departure times that Mel had written on it. It didn't indicate any location. There was another note. I guess also that they found that Mel wrote to a friend and it stated that he was leaving the area and saying that he would be 500 miles away by the time the letter reached the person that he sent the letter to, and it said by the time you receive this, I will, in a sense, have gone away. Unfortunately, or unfortunately, it's a one way trip, so I'm told, with no possibility of ever returning.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, so Mel has been missing for a very long time. There's been no sightings and apparently he was very obsessed or the word I read was obsessed but at the very least, he was interested in this disappearance. Now I could see why. I mean, he had this mystery novel he was writing. There's all these questions about, like, did he do it? Like, did he do it on purpose? So then that makes you raise your eyebrow when you see that Ray disappeared. It was was raised. Disappearance on purpose, yeah, but that that really is an all Okay, all right, so let's get into my next craziness. All right, okay. So there's a book called 2020 vision Okay, and I believe that this book was written by somebody that worked at Penn State, and this book is basically about a time traveler, and the time traveler tries to solve a murder that occurred at Penn State in the 60s. Okay, okay, now this is a fictionalized book, obviously right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Are you guys ready for your heads to explode? Okay, okay. In the book, the fictional story, the person who went missing Went missing on April 15th.
Speaker 2:What Wait? When was this book written Apparently?
Speaker 1:it's a hard book to find, oh 1990. Oh wow. Oh okay, so hang on. So I think this woman was some kind of person that was like a professor at Penn State, right, the the author, okay, and the book is about a tribe time traveler who travels back in time to try to solve a murder. The person goes missing on the same day. Ray is later found missing and one of the clues in the book is that there was cigarette ash found in the car.
Speaker 3:No, okay, new theory. I think that author lady did it.
Speaker 1:But the book was written long before his disappearance.
Speaker 3:Right. So she went and then like what, 15 years later was 2005. So just maybe they went off the deep end. And then 2005 they're like hey, I'm going to see if I can time travel. Yeah, just kidding.
Speaker 2:No, I mean but though, or he read the book and was like I'm going to reenact, oh wait wait, wait.
Speaker 1:Did I mention I forgot the most important detail.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure, Ray was a consultant on the book. No way, oh, he knows the book, he read it yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, he read it, he, this woman. The author, was at Penn State.
Speaker 2:And he figured since it's not a very well known book, it's hard to find, like you said, that this would be a really good story to just play out in his own life. Yeah, so you've got he's. Maybe he left the cigarette ash on purpose as like right.
Speaker 1:Himself, just on purpose. We're going to have to debrief all of this because, look, but so far there are many chapters to this story Ray's early life, upbringing, career. There are the theories about his disappearance. Was he harmed by somebody? Given his district attorney job? That's not something. That's not a job where you don't make enemies necessary, right? So you have the suicide theory. You've got his brother that killed himself. You have him sleeping for you know, excessive periods, making his girlfriend say he should go to the doctor, I mean. And then you have this theory of him walking away to start a new life. And within that theory you've got he's obsessed with this guy, mel Wiley, who disappeared and investigators thought he may have orchestrated his disappearance. And then you've got this book. The book actually boggles my mind because it's the same, the same day. Yeah, like, and if you were here, I literally I'm not even trying to be dramatic, I just got chills. Yeah, same day, cigarette ash in the car. He's a consultant on the book.
Speaker 3:Come on Right.
Speaker 2:Two coincidental yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, there's one more piece that I want to talk. Tell you guys about another theory, okay, and then we can sort of debrief and share any final thoughts. I mean, we, we could go on, I could, we could really like we honestly could spend hours talking about this, or I could, because there's just so much there. Yeah, but let's talk about the fact that there was a sighting of Ray Bear with me, all right, so there was a sighting of Ray and Southfield Michigan. Okay, there were a lot of sightings of Ray. Like I said, there were like 300 sightings. Nothing ever amounted to anything. They could never make anything out of it.
Speaker 1:Right Now, southfield Michigan, it's a city in Oakland County. It's got a pretty big population at least as of oh, as of 2020, there were 76,000 people. Okay, but there was a sighting of him there. Why is this notable, right? Well, the Macedonian Consulate it's in Southfield Michigan. So you guys know anything about Macedonia? No, well, it's a country in Eastern Europe, southeastern Europe. Okay, why is this relevant? Because this is the closest place Ray could have gone to get a visa for Slovenia. So Slovenia is another country in Eastern Europe and Ray has family in Slovenia. That's his roots. Oh, ray actually had Slovenian citizenship citizenship and, curiously, he took a trip to Slovenia in 1973. And again in 1984. At the time it was Yugoslavia.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, why is this relevant? Why did he take those trips? And, furthermore, the details are a little fuzzy, but I'm getting this information from this guy, james Renner. He's like into some true crime cases and he's written a lot of articles and he studied Ray's disappearance. But anyway, somebody requested some documents about Ray Grekar's case and they came back like redacted or something, and it said something about like the CIA was involved and they they've redacted these items or whatever right? Oh, the reason, the reason that's interesting is because the sea, why is the CIA involved in a disappearance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Hear me out. This is the theory. Was he a spy? Oh, a spy for us or a spy for them?
Speaker 2:Is there a reason that they or we would want a spy associated with Slovenia? Do we have, like, any animosity with them? It's just kind of an unexpected country, maybe I don't know. Hang on, I don't know enough about US-Lovainian relations.
Speaker 1:So James Renner he's an author, an investigative journalist, a producer and director and I guess he's from Ohio, yeah, so he took a particular interest in this case. But I think he's controversial a little bit because he'll dive into some theories that some could consider to be conspiracy theories. But I mean, I think he does good work personally.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, if he's got, he's got the facts that he's got. I mean, it's not that he's necessarily like saying this is absolutely what happened, but it's just like these are facts. Yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 4:There was a really good sighting of Ray after his disappearance in Southfield, michigan. This is so cool because the person who who spotted Greek car was a retired police detective who did when he was working for the police did composite sketches.
Speaker 1:So this is the guy you go to.
Speaker 4:This is the eyewitness you want. This is the best eyewitness ever and he says he definitely saw Ray Greek car after he disappeared in Southfield Michigan. Now, what's important about Southfield Michigan? It's nothing. Well, I don't give a shit about Michigan, right?
Speaker 3:Nothing's up there.
Speaker 4:Except for the Macedonian consulate. And if you're on, if you're laying low and you want to leave the country and get a visa to Slovenia, you would go through the Macedonian. That would be the closest place that Ray Greek car could get to go through there. And he has citizenship. He's, I think, grandfather or something. His ancestors came from Slovenia so he could apply for a visa and get taken over there and everything would be kosher. That's how he could escape the United States under under radar. The FBI file also shows that Greek art took two trips to Yugoslavia, which is now part of Slovenia. He took two trips to Yugoslavia during the Cold War, in 1973 and 1984. For the FBI, these are red flags. Why is this young man in 1973 traveling to Yugoslavia, into the Soviet Union? Well, but it is. It is his motherland, it's his, yes, but does he? I don't know that he would have any living relatives there.
Speaker 3:They would be distant.
Speaker 4:But that doesn't really matter, Right. Let's consider he was turned at that point. He and his brother turned to to protect the motherland, to gather information, to be a sleeper agent. Essentially, what better job would there be than, you know, a district attorney?
Speaker 1:That was James Renner talking to the hosts of True Crime Garage, which is another really good podcast that I highly recommend.
Speaker 2:I mean it does sound kind of legit when they describe it. If there was, it's like I don't know, it seems awfully coincidental that they would see a guy who looks like Ray in the same hang on when. When did they? When was this possible Signing? Because if it was shortly after he disappeared, that makes sense 527, may 27th, which was, yeah, may 27th of 2005.
Speaker 1:So he disappeared, disappeared April 15th, so a month and a half ish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's not long Interesting. It's very interesting, do you see? Yeah, like why else would the CIA be involved? That doesn't make any sense, right.
Speaker 1:That's all I mean. We could talk for hours about it. That's what I have. That's what I have. We could talk about theories. I could read more comments, but that's what I have on this case and you see what I mean. It's just so many directions you could go in.
Speaker 2:So if he was in fact a spy, is it that that means that it is so important that no one knows he's a spy that he cannot tell anyone in his life, including his significant other and including, like, local authorities, because we're just carrying on thinking he's a missing person and maybe the CIA knows that he's really not, but they're just going to allow time and resources to be spent on trying to find him when they know he's not going to be found. Like is that? I don't know, maybe if you're a spy, then that just trumps everything.
Speaker 1:I don't know that's a good point too. I mean, as recently as like this year, there was a reward being offered for information. But you'd have to think like if that spy theory held any weight, like that the CIA maybe would get involved and be like yeah, like you know, just, say you're giving up on this. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or maybe they could like fake his death or something, just so it to get him off the radar, because, as you said, this is a pretty big case in the true crime world. So do they really want people to constantly be looking for him and and talking about him and spending time and resources on him Like that's a lot of money?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was, as this year, as recently as this year, there was a. There have been articles about this and it just says that you know they reopened it and that there's a $5,000 reward, and he's been missing now for 18 years.
Speaker 2:But if there's been 500, was it like 500 sightings of him, 300,?
Speaker 1:300, yeah Well, sightings you never know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it was a chance that that it was just coincidental that someone thought they saw him in the same city where the Macedonian Consulate was.
Speaker 1:But did you hear him say, though, that I agree with you, but also did you hear that it was like a sketch artist or something? Yeah, which is just that's crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you think he'd be kind of a face person, like some people are good with faces and some people are not. I'm not good with faces. I don't remember them very well, which is why it's always surprising to me when shopkeepers are like oh yeah, I remember seeing that guy. There's no chance I would ever remember anyone who walked into my shop, yeah, but like a police sketch artist would be a face guy. So it seems like that'd be accurate.
Speaker 3:But could it be like that other guy that got arrested and it's just somebody who looked a lot like him.
Speaker 2:That's true. Can you bring up a picture of him again, of Ray? Yeah, yeah, I did make the comment that he's a pretty average looking guy, I think.
Speaker 1:You're like, he seems nice.
Speaker 3:Could be a spy.
Speaker 1:Here he is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean because looking at him, does he really have any identifiable features? Right, he's a pretty attractive guy. He's got like an average haircut. It's just gray, Like there's nothing. It's not like he has any like big features or, like you know, like big ears or like super stand out, Like yeah, I get it. Like I feel like that guy. Yeah, I don't know, you could see a guy that looks a lot like him, like that's. I know a lot of like 50 year old men who have that haircut.
Speaker 1:So you know, just to summarize a little bit, you've got the three theories and then you've got all the theories within the theories. So there's the murder. He's the district attorney prosecuted a lot of bad people. The whole thing with Sandusky yeah, is it connected? Is it not connected? You've got the tipster that made that whole thing about the gang member who killed him. Oh right, I know there's so much you forget what we talked. I mean, I know it's crazy. And then you've got the suicide theory. You've got this mysterious disappearance of his brother, where he ends up in the river. Yeah, he's depressed, it's ruled as a suicide. You have him sleeping more leading up to his disappearance. You have the fact that his car was found near a bridge. I mean, yeah, it was at the antique shop, but it was near bridges. And then you have this whole the book thing. Drives me insane.
Speaker 4:I just can't believe the thing?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I cannot believe. And then the way he was interested in disappearances. It's just right, I'm not going to lie to you guys. Gone to my head right now. Yeah, I think he. I think he faked his disappearance and he's alive somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Honestly, that might be my leading theory as well, which seems like the most outlandish one, but honestly, like those are just two pieces that are just too highly coincidental to be a coincidence.
Speaker 1:I mean he's. He's obsessed with again, the word I read was obsessed. He's obsessed with this guy who is being, like it's, theorized he faked his disappearance.
Speaker 2:But why, why would he, why would he do this?
Speaker 1:Well, if there you got the whole Slovenia theory. Yeah, I mean, there's that, there's that. I mean that's, that's the, that's the leading question, Right, I mean there was a guy.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. How long? How long had he been with this girlfriend at the time of his disappearance?
Speaker 1:So he split up with his second wife in, I think, 2001. And he disappeared. He disappeared in 2005. But articles that I read referred to this woman, patty, his girlfriend, as his long time girlfriend. Okay, but if he split up from his wife in 2001, they would have been together at the least amount of time for like four years.
Speaker 2:Could you remind me, could you look up again how much time between when he divorced his first wife and then married his second?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have that hang on. So he married his first wife in 1969. He divorced her in 1991.
Speaker 2:That was long, okay. And then when did he meet his second wife?
Speaker 1:So 1991 he gets divorced from his first wife 1996. He gets married to his second wife, so that's five years.
Speaker 2:Five years. I'm just trying to decide if he like, like, if he's the type of guy who does not like being alone and he quickly pursued in a relationship.
Speaker 1:And then you have that whole story about how he like spontaneously proposed to that woman, and that's in the earlier, early 2000s. So he splits from his second wife in 2001. And this, this woman, patty, is apparently his longtime girlfriend. Yeah, by the time he disappears. So when in 2000, in the early 2000s, was the was the proposal to the nurse? Yeah, it's just, it's, it's. Honestly, it sounds like it's out of a movie and I just can't, I can't, I cannot dismiss the whole thing with the book, but it just feels too like there's no way that's a coincidence. I'm sorry, that's right, that's just I think so. Yeah, that is crazy. Any any final thoughts.
Speaker 3:No, I wonder too, if you're gonna like leave your life and you're Googling how to destroy a hard drive, you can do that on your home computer but not really look up anything else. Weird, why wouldn't you do that like on a computer you're gonna destroy and then you're gonna re Googled it.
Speaker 2:That's a really good point.
Speaker 1:But then you have to wonder if his Googling that was not even related to the reason he disappeared and it was like super mundane.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe.
Speaker 1:There's just so many clues and so many things in this case, where it An argument could be made for every single thing. It's just like yeah, it boggles the mind, if Ray was alive today, he'd be 78 years old. Okay, I actually believe he's alive. Yeah, or at least I'll say I believe that his disappearance was fake somehow and that he walked away for whatever reason. I mean, maybe he was, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I just I think I have to lean that way too.
Speaker 1:I mean it's upsetting, you know, because he left behind his daughter.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and his girlfriend it's. So you have to wonder. I mean, yeah, I mean, people have done this. Like, did you guys hear about the case of Robert Hogan? No, oh yeah, there were podcasts about him. So he disappeared. He disappeared in 2013. And he he literally like he was supposed to pick his wife up from the airport that day and he didn't show up and everyone thought it had something to do with his one of his sons. I guess his sons his son was kind of involved with some people and some drug, that was addicted to drugs and like there was some like laptop or there was something that they stole and the the this guy, robert, he like confronted these people and anyway, like people were blaming the son because the son was like this guy, he was like a recovering addict and all this stuff. Okay, so he found his body in December of 2022.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, I was going to ask if this is the guy they just found nine, yeah, nine, years after he was reported missing and he, he, he just walked away. He was, he was living with these new people. He just said like he didn't talk about his old life and my, my whole point in bringing this up is that it does happen and this guy had like a very prom Ray, I mean had a prominent job, he was, yeah, you just don't know. So I, I believe, in conclusion, I believe he very well could be alive today.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I agree with that. I think that's very probable.
Speaker 1:All right, any final words? That was crazy. That's Ray Greay car. That's Ray Greay car. Look it up, man. One minute and 43 seconds is dedicated to my number one fan. Thanks, dad, I love you, I miss you. This podcast has been approved by skipper the cat, right, skippy ferb.