30-year old Ben McDaniel was an avid scuba diver and had enjoyed partaking in the underwater activity since he was a teenager, so when he disappeared 13 years ago today after going on an evening dive, most people assumed that he drowned. But Ben's disappearance would prove to be anything but straightforward.
At the time of his disappearance, Ben was working on overcoming some rough circumstances: He had just lost his younger brother at the young age of 22, he was in debt after a business failure, and he was recently divorced. Still, things were looking up for Ben until the fateful day he vanished.
Suspicious clues left behind, contact with some questionable characters, and a whole lot of speculation surround the still unsolved disappearance of Ben McDaniel.
Join longtime friend and first-time podcast guest, Bryan and I as we discuss the mysterious fate of Ben McDaniel: Did he drown that day, his body being lost to depths, or did something more sinister happen?
Check us out on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@143mysteries
For sources and episode information: http://143mysteries.com
For photos: https://www.instagram.com/143mysteries/
Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/143PODCAST
One Minute and Forty-Three Seconds is dedicated to my number one fan. Thank you, Dad. I love you, and I miss you.
30-year old Ben McDaniel was an avid scuba diver and had enjoyed partaking in the underwater activity since he was a teenager, so when he disappeared 13 years ago today after going on an evening dive, most people assumed that he drowned. But Ben's disappearance would prove to be anything but straightforward.
At the time of his disappearance, Ben was working on overcoming some rough circumstances: He had just lost his younger brother at the young age of 22, he was in debt after a business failure, and he was recently divorced. Still, things were looking up for Ben until the fateful day he vanished.
Suspicious clues left behind, contact with some questionable characters, and a whole lot of speculation surround the still unsolved disappearance of Ben McDaniel.
Join longtime friend and first-time podcast guest, Bryan and I as we discuss the mysterious fate of Ben McDaniel: Did he drown that day, his body being lost to depths, or did something more sinister happen?
Check us out on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@143mysteries
For sources and episode information: http://143mysteries.com
For photos: https://www.instagram.com/143mysteries/
Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/143PODCAST
One Minute and Forty-Three Seconds is dedicated to my number one fan. Thank you, Dad. I love you, and I miss you.
I was re-listening two old episodes of your podcast just to compare. There was one forgive me, I forget the case. It was a disappearance of a fella. He got lost by a bridge or something like that, in Pennsylvania. He was like the DA of Pennsylvania or something like that.
Speaker 2:That's my last one part one that was the most recent one.
Speaker 1:Okay, you guys, if I may say, you missed a golden opportunity for some funny making.
Speaker 2:I did Okay.
Speaker 1:Because his name was Roy and his brother's name was Ray.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:Like do the parents only know about two consonants? Like what's going on? Who names their kids like that? Roy. This is my son, Roy. This is my other son, Ray. This is my third son, Rue Rue, Rue Rui.
Speaker 2:That's interesting feedback. I didn't cross, I mean, I don't know, I didn't cross my mind. It's a good case. That's such an interesting case man.
Speaker 1:I mean it sounds interesting. I like that you split it in two. I think it was a good idea.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Yeah, I thought it got a little bit too long and then, after editing and everything, the two parts ended up being about equal in length. So, yeah, awesome, yeah, welcome to the show First time guests.
Speaker 1:Yes, A long time listener, first time caller.
Speaker 2:Thanks for being part of this. You and I have been friends for quite a while. Do you want to introduce yourself?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:No, I am Brian.
Speaker 2:I am Megan's annoying friend, but the one she likes, so you're not annoying at all, brian, and that was not even sarcastic. You're not annoying.
Speaker 1:All right, seriously, I'll actually pause. Can you hear this chair creaking in the back?
Speaker 2:Yes, when you do that, yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, I will try to be careful, sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not, you know noise reduction, you know this isn't Joe Rogan or anything.
Speaker 1:It's better than Joe Rogan. Oh yeah, I mean, this was preaching about turpentine, apparently, or something. It's like camera buddy About what? Turpentine when was that I don't know, I just saw a thing come across it, just most recent one. She's like oh yeah, you hear about the benefits of turpentine. It's like, buddy, shut the f*** up. I don't know. Can I keep that in? Yeah, okay, you might, you might, you might display your pro Joe Rogan audience, you know, but I'm not going to be silent about Joe Rogan. Fair enough, not silenced me.
Speaker 2:Fair enough. Fair enough, um okay, great. So would you like to hear about the case that I would picked?
Speaker 1:out I'm not going to be here about the case. I am thrilled.
Speaker 2:How much do you know about cave diving?
Speaker 1:Oh God, megan, god bless it be the name. I hate this. What, oh my God, you get all? Oh no, I've seen the videos. I've seen those like those, those, those, those horror stories of a guy who gets into a cave that's like the size of a shoebox and I just get the heavies all up and down my body.
Speaker 2:Oh, same it's. Yeah, I'm with you on that. But so I have a case. Today we're going to be talking about this guy who was pretty involved in cave diving.
Speaker 1:Oh, fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no it.
Speaker 1:What happened? Did he get lost in a cave? I saw the mystery.
Speaker 2:It's a bit. It's a bit more, it's a bit deeper than that, so it's a really interesting case. It's about this guy who was an avid scuba diver and, on the surface, no pun intended.
Speaker 1:Oh ring the bell.
Speaker 2:The case may seem a little straight. It might seem straightforward on the surface, but when you start digging into it a little deeper it becomes really interesting and very questionable. So I'm interested to hear what you think.
Speaker 1:All right, hit me.
Speaker 2:Okay, so today we're going to be talking about Ben McDaniel.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:He disappeared on August 18th 2010. So when this episode airs, it's actually going to be the 13th anniversary of his disappearance.
Speaker 1:Oh, like 13. Maybe we'll find him, maybe, maybe we'll crack the case.
Speaker 2:I hope so. So yeah, like I said, he was a. He was an avid scuba diver. That was his main hobby, and I know you're going in blind. You've never heard of this before.
Speaker 1:Never heard of this before.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's go. So to start with some background, Ben McDaniel. He was born April 15th 1980 in Memphis, Tennessee, making him 30 years old at the time that he disappeared in 2010. He was the oldest of three sons to Shelby and Patty McDaniel, and they were a pretty wealthy couple, but in the late 2000s, Ben was going through some extremely rough times, particularly in 2008.
Speaker 1:Why? What? Was there some big event that happened in 2008?
Speaker 2:There were actually a few events that happened in 2008. So Ben had a construction business and with that whole economy crash thing that happened in 2008.
Speaker 1:And just that little snafu. Just that, yeah, yeah so you know, I stubbed my toe the other day, so I know what it's like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So, anyway, his business ended up failing and he was about $50,000 in debt because of that.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:But it gets worse. He was also going through a divorce.
Speaker 1:When it rains, of course, I guess.
Speaker 2:But then there's the third thing that's really bad, that happens in 2008. And that's that his younger brother, paul one of his two younger brothers he actually passed away at the age of 22 years old.
Speaker 1:Geez, that sucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Paul was going through a really bad time at this time in his life and actually Ben was the one that found his brother and actually attempted to revive him.
Speaker 1:It ain't great.
Speaker 2:No, not at all, and it was determined. I mean so, it was said to be a stroke and actually the family they went on to start a foundation in his honor to fund research and into the treatment of strokes.
Speaker 1:I ashamed to kind of help Mitch McConnell.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, that was crazy, wasn't it? Have you seen the memes?
Speaker 1:Of course I've seen the memes, Is it?
Speaker 2:bad that some of them make me chuckle a little bit. I feel bad for the guy that made me sad to see. But some of the memes people.
Speaker 1:it's so bad, it's funny. It's the same thing as the billionaires and the submarines, and the submarine like, yeah, I feel bad for them. But also like it's Mitch McConnell. You know it's. You know he's a villain. You know you don't feel bad when Jafar gets defeated at the end, you know.
Speaker 2:I guess, but I just I don't know. It made me a little sad to see, but I get it, I get it.
Speaker 1:Well, for the research on being government. Maybe this is his calling.
Speaker 2:Probably not. Agree with that. So yeah, so they did all this research for like treatments and, yeah, towards strokes and stuff.
Speaker 1:Good work Julia.
Speaker 2:But it came out later actually, that he actually passed away due to a drug overdose.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, silver linings, at least I got all that stroke money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's unclear to me whether the family genuinely thought it was a stroke and then it came out later as a drug overdose, or if they were in somewhat denial over that.
Speaker 1:Or do you think it was like some Tom Fulery? Like they were like oh, we can't say that the kid died of a drug overdose, we'll just hide it and say it was a stroke. Are you saying something like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, isn't that kind of I guess that's kind of what I mean by denial Like maybe they were either in denial or they didn't want the image of it. I'm not really sure.
Speaker 1:I don't know Either way, I don't know, and that's today's unsolved mystery.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it. That's all folks.
Speaker 1:That's it. We're sponsored by Squarespace. You need a website today.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's my first sponsor, so anyway, yeah, so Ben not going through a good time. So just to recap his business fails, he's in debt, he's going through a divorce and his brother passes away. Not good.
Speaker 1:Like I said, it ain't great. That was certainly. That's a lot of shit and I don't envy him for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So because of all this, it was due to these circumstances that Ben's parents actually suggested that he take a bit of a sabbatical and, like I said, they were pretty wealthy, so they offered their beach house to him and they said they would support him financially until he could get back upon his feet.
Speaker 1:Okay, I mean I would do the same. I have those shoes, I can't deny it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, absolutely. Even if one of those things happened I'd be like I'm out. So anyway, they're from Tennessee, but his parents actually owned a beach house, and that was located on Santa Rosa Beach on the Emerald Coast of the Florida Panhandle.
Speaker 1:Okay, is that, oh, florida Panhandle, okay. So yeah, that's the golf.
Speaker 2:Yep, the golf side, yep, exactly so. He agreed and in April of 2010, he moved with his chocolate lab into the beach house.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, all right Time for beach living.
Speaker 2:Beach living, and it was a good move for him because he could finally partake in his longtime hobby, which was scuba diving.
Speaker 1:All right, here we are scuba.
Speaker 2:Here we go. Yep, we're getting to it.
Speaker 1:He was actually. You know the acronym for scuba stands for. It's actually an acronym.
Speaker 2:You know, I forgot that it was an acronym. And no, I don't. Let me see if I can guess Beach. Okay, underwater, be awesome. That's my guess. How did you know? That was pretty clever, though, for the first guess. Am I right?
Speaker 1:That's fantastic, like an A plus. It's even better because I actually don't know what it stands for.
Speaker 2:Oh, you don't. Now we'll have to look it up.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You don't know what it stands for.
Speaker 1:No, I just knew it's an acronym, like laser.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that. Oh, here we go, Self-contained underwater breathing apparatus. So oh, I got one word right Underwater.
Speaker 1:All right, what a lovely tangent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was great.
Speaker 1:Your listeners are going to this is the content your listeners listen for.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Anyway. So he had been scuba diving since he was 15 years old, so he liked to do this. And now that he was back on the golf or not back in the golf, but now he thought he was on the golf he could finally indulge in this hobby. All right, and even though he was on the golf coast, he actually preferred to dive in fresh water which brings us to Vortex Spring.
Speaker 1:Vortex Spring.
Speaker 2:Vortex Spring.
Speaker 1:Vortex Spring. Where are you going swimming? I'm going in Vortex Spring. Oh, that's safe.
Speaker 2:Right, so Vortex Spring is a commercially owned diving facility, okay, and it's supposedly at one time at least, it was the largest diving facility in the state.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And actually people would come from all over the world to dive in this spring and most often they were interested in this cave.
Speaker 1:I think it just ends, but it's a natural spring formation. It's not like a big pool or something right?
Speaker 2:It's fed by the Floridon aquifer, whatever that means. So no I mean it's a natural thing.
Speaker 1:I think Okay.
Speaker 2:But the main attraction of the spring is this cave.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:In the Vortex Spring. So there is a. There's actually a gate that prevents people from going into the cave because you need a certification to go into the cave. There's a special certification that you need to partake in cave diving and the people like that own Vortex Spring withhold the key unless you're able to show that you have this certification.
Speaker 1:All right, makes perfect sense. But then again you can get in there that cave with you know, a million dollars, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it's like the, it's like the sub, it's like I'm not touching that thing.
Speaker 1:You can't tell me to go down there. No, no. So be certified, know what you're doing. Don't think that you're better than nature, because guess what you ain't.
Speaker 2:Not at all, and there is actually a sign on the outside of this cave that warns people and I got to show you this sign. But anyway, the reason that they have this, this cave, like blocked off by, with a gate, with a padlock and key and everything, is because in the 1990s, 13 people died in it.
Speaker 1:Why did it? Why did it take that many? Why didn't you do this after like two? I do yeah, like what?
Speaker 2:That's a great question.
Speaker 1:We keep losing them. Should we do anything about it? No, it's only the nine deaths. Well, we'll wait a few more, you know, see if it's really a trend, oh my.
Speaker 2:God, I hear you, I hear you. And so, in addition to the gate with the lock, they also put up this sign that depicts the Grim Reaper. Can you see this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see the sign I got to tell you it's scary, but it looks like the Grim Reaper's giving me a little finger. Oh no, he's doing the. Come hither, Okay.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it does look like that. I'm gonna post this on my Instagram page at 143Mysteries.
Speaker 1:At 143Mysteries. Everyone go there and do your Instagrams there, all right. So the sign says stop, prevent your death, go no farther Fact more than 300 drivers, including open water scuba instructors, have died in caves, just like this. One Fact you need training to die is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I think I get the most.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you get the gist of it.
Speaker 1:Okay, I get the gist of it. Oh, and you know it's legit because they have four acronyms at the bottom.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:There is nothing in this cave worth dying for. Well, that's what the quitters say.
Speaker 2:Right. So yeah, that is the cave at Vortex Spring. Okay, and you know, Ben became kind of fascinated with cave diving, despite him not being certified, right.
Speaker 1:Okay, great sentence there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I hope your next sentence is so he got certified.
Speaker 2:You know he was actually in the process of becoming certified. It was something he was wanting to do, but in the meantime he was actually allegedly pushing the gate aside and going through to explore this cave, in addition to diving in the Vortex Spring.
Speaker 1:All right, all right, I've said my piece about it.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I get it. I get it, but anyway, before we get to his disappearance. So he's living at the beach house, right, right, about a week before he disappears he actually goes back to Tennessee to visit his parents and see his girlfriend. He was seeing someone and, according to them, everything was going pretty well in his life. He had a despite everything he was going through, he had a pretty positive outlook. He was talking a lot about cave diving, he wanted to be certified and he actually was talking about opening up like his own cave diving business. I'm not sure how that would work.
Speaker 1:Okay, so he's really into this.
Speaker 2:He's very much into it, and so when he ends up leaving Tennessee to go back to Florida the week before his disappearance, he leaves his parents a note actually thanking them for supporting him during his break, for letting him stay in the beach house, and he writes that he promises that he'll look after them as they get older. Like returning the favor, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So strike you as odd.
Speaker 1:Just a little. I mean not in like a mysterious way, just that. Does that not thing to say? Like in a written letter? It's 2000 and something just called I don't know. It's just weird. Don't worry, guys, I got you. You know, you've done so much for me. I promise I'm not gonna chuck you in a retirement home. I'll actually do good for you. Just a weird thing to put in a letter.
Speaker 2:A little bit, yeah, but it does say he left. I mean it says that he left them a letter thanking them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Letters are nice.
Speaker 2:All right. So this brings us to August 18th, all right, which is the day that he's gonna disappear 13 years ago today.
Speaker 2:Exactly. He returns to the beach house and of course he goes to Vortex Spring and by the way he became kind of a regular here. So the employees knew him at this point and it was said on this day that divers saw that he was looking closely around the cave entrance as if he was planning something, and he went on a dive. Probably in the middle of the day he resurfaces, he filled up his tanks, his air tanks. This was all recorded on security footage and he went down again at 7.30 pm to do another dive, and this actually before that he called his mother on his cell phone and this is the last contact he had with anyone.
Speaker 1:My promise I'll take care of you and the old people. And I'm still alive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, I know that this is. You can see that this is going in a particular direction, but trust me, there's more than meets the eye here.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so he spent a lot of the afternoon before he called his mom. He spent a lot of the afternoon by himself. He was recording things in his dive logs and testing out equipment, and around 7.30, just as the sun was setting he decided to go down into the water again. Now here's where things get interesting.
Speaker 1:So Well, my first thought and I don't know nothing about scuba, but like is that safe? Can you scuba in the dark? I guess, if you have like a flashlight on your head or something where a headlight yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:That's a good point. He did have like a light on his helmet.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:And I have the same question, but I guess, if you're exploring a cave which he wasn't technically supposed to be doing, but it sounds like the rules here were a little lax because he was able to get past this- I think it sounds like a moderately you know capable scuba diver.
Speaker 1:So you know, I'm sure he had experienced scuba in the dark.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I think that he probably did. But it's interesting you say that because one of the employees at the dive shop his name was Chuck Cronin said that. Well, ben did have experience. He was oftentimes overconfident about his abilities.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:In his opinion.
Speaker 1:I mean, megan, you are leading me down a path here and I think I know what's going on, but I mean, you keep on dropping these little hands. Oh, he was overconfident. Oh, he didn't have a certification, oh, that's it. It's like all right, this, is that going great?
Speaker 2:It's not. And you're probably thinking like why did she pick such a bulls*** mystery to talk about?
Speaker 1:No, I'm not.
Speaker 2:Clearly, we know what the hell happened, right? Well, just hold on, because there's some details that will make you scratch your scratch your eyebrows, or that's not the right phrase. You know what I mean? Scratch my eyebrows. I'm gonna cut that out. Maybe I won't.
Speaker 1:No, you gotta keep it in now. I've already begun to, I've already begun to be be going on about it, so it's gotta be kept in. Here I go.
Speaker 2:All right, all right, it's gonna stay in Anyway. So, chuck Cronin, that's the employee right that I just mentioned Another employee that was working that name by the name, or working that night by the name of Eduardo Taran. They were on their way back from a dive and they did this pretty much every every Wednesday, as this day was after their shop closed. They saw Ben going into the water as they were coming out. He had his lights on and he was wearing his helmet, which gave them the indication that he was venturing into the cave. Now, eduardo, the one employee, pretty much knew that Ben had been pushing aside the gate or like forcing it open to get in there.
Speaker 1:Not a good gate. They're really not taking it. They're not being safe about this.
Speaker 2:Well, taking it a step further, Eduardo, assuming that Ben was going to go into the cave, actually just open the gate for him on this night.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, bad call obviously, but whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so they had seen Ben do these dives late at night before, and they typically stayed around to make sure he came up to the surface safely. But, what do you know, this particular night they went back to Eduardo's house instead to hang out and didn't actually wait for him to resurface.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:Fast forward to the next morning. It was a really, really busy day at Vortex Spring, with a lot of summer visitors coming, so the employees didn't notice that Ben's truck was still in the parking lot until the day after. So now we're talking about August 20th.
Speaker 1:Okay, until the day after. The day after.
Speaker 2:Correct so he goes on his dive the evening of August 18th and then August 20th, they see the car still in the parking lot.
Speaker 1:That's when I realized oh hey, that's Ben's car.
Speaker 2:Exactly, Yep, Yep. So you know. They pretty clearly think that obviously something happened to him on his dive. His truck is still in the parking lot, and so they call the police.
Speaker 1:They're like ah crap, there's number 14.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, so they assume something happened to him. The police come, they discover inside his truck. See, I've seen it, reported that. Well, first of all his cell phone was in his truck. They didn't find any diving equipment.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I've seen it reported that he left $700 in cash behind in his wallet, which was left in the truck, but I've also seen it reported that it was $1,100. So I'm not really clear.
Speaker 1:That's still a good amount of money.
Speaker 2:A good amount of money and it was left behind in his truck, so not looking good, $1,100.
Speaker 1:That's just walking around funny.
Speaker 2:Exactly Right. So, yeah, they're thinking that he he drowned. Okay, yeah, but it gets deeper than that, because Deeper.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't even mean it like that, but I see what I did there, let's see. So the police get there, they, they secure the area, they put crime scene tape up, they seal it off. They call his family, his family comes. They had a bunch of divers basically including, I think, the two employees that I mentioned go down into the cave to search for, like around the cave or through the cave to find Ben, but nobody can find him. They do find some of his equipment. Two of the tanks that were belonging to him were found near the entrance to the cave, which to me when I first read it was like okay, well, he, something obviously happened to him down there If they're finding his equipment down there. But actually diving experts thought that this was kind of weird, because I guess it's a thing where cave divers usually usually place extra air tanks that they need for decompression and they place them at.
Speaker 2:They place them at points along their exit routes so they can follow them out.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I didn't know we were getting as deep as decompression levels. So yeah, I think I've heard that before where it's like because you just got to sit there for like half an hour while your body readjust, or something like that. I think that's how. I think that's what it is.
Speaker 2:That sounds right to me, but I'm not. I'm not, honestly. Yeah, all I'm hearing is that experts are saying it's weird because they saw it as inconsistent, because when they tested these particular tanks, they contained normal air and they were not the specialized gas mix that was required for diving at death. All right, that's good. Yeah, and so Ben being the experienced diver that he was, albeit not certified in cave diving, he would have known about this.
Speaker 2:And so yeah, and he had also been like looking into cave diving and researching it extensively. I mean, it seemed like it was really really.
Speaker 1:I mean, was there some time flurry about like did somebody did? He was there like tanks filled with air for nefarious purposes and he took those.
Speaker 2:Well relating to the air specifically nefarious? I don't think so, but there are some other really interesting, really interesting clues. In this case, there was actually a documentary about this, this whole thing, to sum it up so I don't go into a ton of technical things Several people, like professional divers really really good divers volunteered right to search through this cave and they found no sign of Ben. The cave had actually been mapped out. While they say the full extent of it isn't exactly known, it's been mapped out and most professional divers are in agreement that Ben is not in a cave. Okay, because they've checked crevices. I guess it's a common thing which I also learned in researching this case when divers panic in these caves, which is another reason that I would never do this.
Speaker 1:Oh God, could you imagine having a panic attack In a tiny little cave underwater?
Speaker 2:I mean, the thought of it makes me want to panic. Right now I'm perfectly safe above water.
Speaker 1:I'm feeling the eebies just talking about it.
Speaker 2:Oh I know it's crazy, but apparently these caves have these little crevices where, if you're underwater and your air supply gets low or something happens where something gets in your mask or something that causes you to panic you could get disoriented and try to escape and end up in one of these little crevices where you I think we know.
Speaker 1:It's stuck or something, but the professional divers are certain he's not in there.
Speaker 2:They do not believe that he is in there. This guy, ed Sorensen, he was like a recovery specialist and he was like a professional diver or whatever, a veteran cave diver. He was called in, even though it's weird because he was called in but he was also told by several divers it was really dangerous to search. He did it anyway and he pretty much insisted when you're the best, ed Sorensen, you know your risks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he said, quote it would be impossible to go through that restriction. He's talking about a particular area in the cave. It would be possible to go through that restriction without making a mark on the floor or ceiling. He's not in there. And, furthermore, they did some tests on the water, where I mean not to be graphic, but they tested the water for components or something to do with human remains.
Speaker 1:Okay, so decomposition, chemical markers or some such thing.
Speaker 2:And they found none. So also they made a comment like that if there was a decomposing body in there, there would be fish or something that was attracted to it. But they didn't see anything of the sort.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, just based on what you've told me, I don't think the sky's at the cave.
Speaker 2:Okay, see, I told you it wasn't as straightforward, right.
Speaker 1:And I believed you the whole time. You were just walking me down the path, like just leading the blind man right along, and you took me for that ride.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I'm trying to decide where to go next with this. There's a couple theories here about what may have happened, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:One of Sorry, were you gonna start Say something? Oh, no, no.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I mean I got some wild theories already, but there's more information. Before I go on about something crazy like portals or aliens or something like that, yeah well, yeah, you, just you wait.
Speaker 2:Aliens may be a viable theory here. The first theory is that Ben started a new life.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:The theory you hear with every disappearance, that goes unsolved.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly.
Speaker 1:They're all living on a farm somewhere. All these hundreds of disappeared persons. They all just started a new life in Albania or something. Just all of them together, it's. You hear it every single time.
Speaker 2:I know, did you hear me? I forget which part of the Ray Grecar case that I was saying this on, if it was part one or part two, but there's a part where I was saying how there was another podcast I listened to and they were exploring the theory that somebody started a new life and he's like I know. This happens every single episode, like every single case. Somebody always thinks they started a new life. It could be a three-year-old, and then you'd say, oh, they crawled off to start a new life.
Speaker 1:I think people underestimate how hard it is to start a new life. You can't just do that. You need a social security number. You can't just go and do that.
Speaker 2:Do you?
Speaker 1:though, yeah, you do.
Speaker 2:That wouldn't be the first of my concerns. The first of my concerns would be money. If you had a bunch of cash? Right, if you had a bunch of cash, what else do you really need? Check into a motel somewhere random, somehow get to a different city.
Speaker 1:You can conceivably do that. You can conceivably say off the grid for a little while. But if you want to start any semblance of life really, eventually you're going to have to turn in some kind of information that you can only get from the government. It's possible they sell social security numbers on the black market, et cetera, and so forth. I'm sure it can happen. I'm just saying it's not easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I get you. It wouldn't be easy. Plus, depending on how high-profile your case was, you would have to worry about being recognized.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I'm sure this guy's face was plastered all over the country for a little while. You can't just go and pretend you're Joe Schmoe and be like man. You look a lot like that diver. Well, don't worry about it. Here's $800 in cash. Just do what I say for no reason. It's hard.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess you could change your appearance too, but I'm with you. I don't think it's as easy as people tend to think.
Speaker 1:I'll give it a try and report back.
Speaker 2:All right. So the main things that people point to for this theory is just the fact that he was going through such hard times, right, yeah, oh, and the note that he left his parents. Like you said, some people think that was a little odd, was it? We'll tie this theory of suicide slash, starting a new life into one, because I guess both of them kind of to me, they kind of fit together in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, from what you've told me, obviously starting a new life probably didn't happen. Suicide may be, but, like again, it's a common theme among these missing persons is they go through all this elaborate hullabaloo just to go and kill themselves elsewhere where they're not found. Like he went through all of this work with all the cave diving and the setting up with the tanks and everything, and then he just was like, okay, I'm done, I'll go off myself now, like ah, it just doesn't vibe. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it just doesn't vibe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, it seems a little farfetched, for sure, and anyway, because they were operating on a theory that maybe Ben took his life elsewhere. Cadaver dogs and police search the woods and things around Vortex Spring. They use helicopters, they search slumps, they search the springs outflow which ended up in the Chattowatchee River and anyway they found no sign of Ben.
Speaker 1:Well, I imagine if you wouldn't have been able to get too far, presumably unless he had some, because he left his car so it had to be within walking radius or I don't know. He got a ride from somebody, but that's just a whole other bag of worms.
Speaker 2:Right, All right. So let's talk about the controversy with the reward money. So Ben's parents offered $10,000, to quote anyone brave enough to go find Ben in the cave, because his parents maintained I guess his parents really believed that he was in the cave- and that he just hadn't been found yet.
Speaker 1:Okay, initial thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because now you're going to have everybody with a plastic baggie of air trying to get into that cave.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:So that's going to be good, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right, that was the controversy. I mean you had number one also that what you said is that people that are ill-prepared that would encourage them to go in there. They had no idea what they're doing and it was kind of a slap in the face to the people that had already done the search, as if they weren't brave or whatever.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I mean, didn't they know that Ed Shorenson went down there?
Speaker 2:I know Ed Shorenson went down there Ed Shorenson.
Speaker 1:Of course I mean God. You send down Ed. He's good for his work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they actually ended up increasing the reward money $30,000.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, now I'm into it.
Speaker 2:Now you're what.
Speaker 1:Now I'm into it. Now I got to go down there and check myself but check it out.
Speaker 2:So this other diver from Mississippi by the name of Larry Higginbotham.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry what.
Speaker 2:Larry Higginbotham. He was another diver Higginbotham.
Speaker 1:Higginbotham.
Speaker 2:Okay, a little bit.
Speaker 1:I thought I had a funny name to play with that is funny. It's funny.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's not going to be funny when I tell you this next part, because he died searching the cave.
Speaker 1:Awesome. I'm really glad that you let me get my little funny joke out and make me look like a soul.
Speaker 2:It sucks. No, for real, though. May he rest in peace. And while they couldn't prove that he was down there looking for Ben, this is why it took for them to be like you know what? Maybe this reward money is not a great idea.
Speaker 1:We've killed a man. Maybe we should stop.
Speaker 2:Yes, they rescinded the reward offer, which is probably a good call.
Speaker 1:A very good call.
Speaker 2:All right. So we touched briefly upon the possibility that Ben ended his life or faked his disappearance to start a new life. I don't really buy it.
Speaker 1:Maybe do.
Speaker 2:I Something I personally believe is a little more plausible, but let's hear what you think. Another theory is that Ben did die on the cave dive, but because the employees were so lax with the fact that he wasn't certified and they opened the gate for him, did the employees somehow remove his body to? Avoid accountability, that's another theory.
Speaker 1:Sneaky. I can definitely see it being a thing. I do see two issues One, and I don't know if this is real or not. A scientist, you'll have to come into your comments and tell me if I'm actually right, but I mean smart fellows.
Speaker 2:Yes, smart fellows.
Speaker 1:People who got both murdered. They were talking about finding these chemicals, these decomposition chemicals, and I imagine if you died in a thing, something would get released relatively right away. If you died at 10 o'clock at night, they don't open the gate till 8 or whatever. I'm just making up those numbers. That's several hours of decomposition that can happen. I imagine there's still be something in the water Point number B. They had all the dogs at you. Do they just throw the body in a truck and drive it away or something? And the dogs didn't pick up on any smell. No one found any evidence or anything.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the theory would be that they did something that night.
Speaker 1:Oh, so the employees went back and found them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or instead of waiting for him to resurface, because they said they didn't wait for him to resurface this particular night. By the way, the guy actually the one who unlocked the gate for him that night he actually, for what it's worth, passed a lie detector test.
Speaker 1:That's worth nothing. Lie detector tests are useless.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, so do it that way, you will.
Speaker 1:But I'm not saying that's guaranteed, you did it or anything. Could it have been? And this might be theory number three. So apologies, but could it have been that Ben never went in the water at all? There were some altercation with the employees for some unknown reason and they just offed him there and then took him away and tried to make it look like he went down.
Speaker 2:You know what that is great that you mentioned that, because that does lead us into Lowell Kelly.
Speaker 1:Lowell Kelly.
Speaker 2:Now, Lowell Kelly was the owner of Vortex Spring and he had owned Vortex Spring since 2007 and he was actually facing criminal charges at the time of Ben's disappearance.
Speaker 1:What were the criminal charges?
Speaker 2:Oh, I can't wait to tell you.
Speaker 1:Oh boy, I can't wait to hear.
Speaker 2:So he's the owner of Vortex Spring and so, I guess, an employee, a temporary employee, who apparently, he said, owed him money, thousands of dollars. Okay, he did what we all do when someone owes us money he forcibly kidnapped him, took him out into an isolated wooded area and tried to beat him with a baseball bat.
Speaker 1:Okay, lowell. Mr Powell, a bit of an overreaction.
Speaker 2:Light.
Speaker 1:First off, why are you lending money to a temporary employee?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know what the exact circumstances behind this were.
Speaker 1:What if it was for like, for five bucks? Like I was, like I forgot my lunch. Here's five bucks. Make sure I get it back. Doesn't pay him back for a couple of days. Take some out.
Speaker 2:Now, luckily this man escaped.
Speaker 1:Thank God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but Lowell was actually charged with assault and kidnapping.
Speaker 1:Why.
Speaker 2:What does emily-erated mean? I could look it up, but do you know what that means?
Speaker 1:No, not like I've heard it used, but I am not a lawyer.
Speaker 2:Make something bad or unsatisfactory better. So it says, he emily-erated the charges against him by pleading no contest.
Speaker 1:Oh, so I guess that means like he got the charges lessened by not putting up a fight.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Like you know how they'll say, like we'll bring you down from murder to manslaughter if you just sign the plea deal.
Speaker 2:Got it, okay, so yeah, so anyway, he was fined for this and sentenced to seven years probation. Seven years probation.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's not that Fine Slap on the list, but probation. He kidnapped a man and beat him with a baseball bat.
Speaker 2:I'm saying I think that's too lenient.
Speaker 1:Oh my God Florida.
Speaker 2:Don't you think that's too lenient, or what are you saying? Yes that's too lenient.
Speaker 1:He was convicted with a no contest charge. That's for kidnapping, assault and general malfeasance, and he gets a baby's first. Fine Like get out of here, Throw him in the jail Baby's first, baby's first fine. Like come on, oh my God.
Speaker 2:Dude, I'm going to start using that. That's awesome Baby's first fine.
Speaker 1:Baby's first. Fine, okay, okay. So obviously bad news bears. You are now working for a man who kidnapped a guy and got away with it, so that's not good.
Speaker 2:Well, it gets even more interesting because he did it twice?
Speaker 1:No, or maybe.
Speaker 2:No, so in 2011,. Right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Lowell Kelly was actually. He was hosting a chili cookoff At Vortex spring later that year in 2011. Cool.
Speaker 1:Really cool.
Speaker 2:He actually fell down some stairs and got a head injury.
Speaker 1:Okay, was it the chili?
Speaker 2:Was what the chili.
Speaker 1:The cause of his fall.
Speaker 2:I don't think so. I think he fell down some stairs and anyway, this is, this is weird, okay, okay, apparently, a guest that was also at the chili cookoff took him home to rest and recover.
Speaker 1:To his home or to the guest's home.
Speaker 2:No to his home.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And they helped him, like take a shower, I guess, or get into the shower, and then they put him to rest in a bathtub.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Long story short, his condition worsened overnight. Another employee came by the next day to check on him. He was basically in a coma and he died the next month.
Speaker 1:Like they always say, if you get a concussion, don't go to sleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds like that's what happened.
Speaker 1:I mean very interesting that whole series of events. Man has a chili cookoff at a water fountain, bashes, his head, gets taken home by somebody Undressed by said somebody, put into a tub by said somebody, and then why the tub?
Speaker 2:Why not the bed?
Speaker 1:Why the tub? Why not the bed? Why go? It's just, it's the strangest situation. Yeah, this tub will do you good. Yeah, I really cranked that neck. That's what's good. I mean, I don't know if you've had head trauma. Oh yeah, Bend those knees really get them stuck in there.
Speaker 2:It's unclear what was going on there. I mean, they clearly didn't think that.
Speaker 1:Maybe they didn't think that his injuries were as severe as they were. I don't know. But that's not better. I'll just undress it.
Speaker 2:Well, check it out, though. There was another guy that was. I forget who this was. I need to find the source and I apologize that I don't have it in front of me, but apparently this guy said that he doesn't believe that little Kelly. He actually actually died the way that it was recorded, and that he was killed because he had more knowledge about Ben's disappearance than he let on. Yeah, so he had more knowledge about Ben's disappearance and, quote, he talked. He liked to talk too much when he drank. So this particular person that said this theorized that Ben was as low Kelly did I talk too much when he drank. They were afraid of him spilling the beans on what could have happened to Ben.
Speaker 1:Okay, but if he talked too much when he drank, he was filled beans already.
Speaker 2:I. I don't know that's a good point, but something else interesting is that the night that Ben did his dive at Vortex spring, the night he disappeared, lowell Kelly was actually there, by his own admission, and he had stayed late that night.
Speaker 1:Done, done, done that. There it is.
Speaker 2:You think it was low?
Speaker 1:I don't know if it was low, I just it's a good question of why. You know, we've of course comes up, obviously more is what we call the industry at that egg, but that's the in. Perhaps you'll tell me momentarily, but you know, is what's the rationale, what's the reasoning, you know, or anything like that. You know, obviously Lowell's death does seem a little bit strange, but you know, hamlin's razor, whatever it's called, you know it could just been genuine stupidity on the part of the person who took him home. You know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, and not so much having to do with Lowell's death, but a theory that I've seen is that, I mean, obviously Lowell was a violent person. He took somebody out into the woods and tried to beat the hell out of them. Is they all?
Speaker 1:one time.
Speaker 2:I mean, I just once. But one theory I read is that maybe he was upset, that Ben was going around the gate or like breaking the rules or something or some other altercation happened when he ascended from his dive or, like you said, he didn't go into the water at all period and an altercation happened and he was disposed of and then they left, you know, they left his truck there to, you know, make it look like it was the guy that did. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe I don't know, it's it's, it's, it's, it's. Funky. For sure it does have a twinge of the weird to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a weird one, but I think one of the main theories is that he died doing this dive and the employees disposed of him because they didn't want any further attention or lawsuit, or I mean, yeah, he was rich.
Speaker 1:I'd say if he died on site due to the employees just opening up the gate all willy-nilly to an uncertified diver at night, I mean his parents would. I mean I could be their lawyer and I would win that case. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And, by the way, I feel like you've got rich parents. Oh yeah, and how sad is it, by the way, that they've lost one son to drugs and now they've lost another son, so they have one remaining son.
Speaker 1:Again, it ain't great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's really all I have about this, I mean.
Speaker 1:All right, so put your bets on. I think, allegedly putting that blanket above all my statements, he said I think Lowell and or the employees had some sort of conflux where he happened. Whether it was Ben just disobeying the rules or maybe there was money or women involved, you never know, but something went down. I don't think he died in the cave. I think he died before, after his dive, if he even took a dive and the body was disposed of and the cops just never got wind of it. That's what I think. No evidence of support, but like that's the only thing that makes sense from the information I have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tend to agree with you and I do want to just add on there are some people that still believe he's in the cave, in like a crazy part that was undiscovered or something.
Speaker 1:I mean maybe, but they have the whole cave mapped, don't they? So the only. I mean I suppose there's a possibility that he got some tiny, you know little culvera corpse that opened up and sealed in the same night, or something like that.
Speaker 2:So what I've seen here? It says, beginning at the gate over 1600 feet through the area's limestone bedrock have been mapped to a depth of 310 feet. The cave's full extent is unknown. At some points the passage narrows to 10 inches.
Speaker 1:Nope.
Speaker 2:They're requiring divers to remove their tanks, push them forward through the passage, then twist their bodies to follow.
Speaker 1:Or how about don't what Right?
Speaker 2:And I was listening to another podcast about this case, this YouTuber that I like named Kendall Ray and she was like she was talking about that and she said can I get a no?
Speaker 1:Absolutely not.
Speaker 2:Like why do people find that fun? I mean, I'm not to judge anyone's hobbies, right, but that's not, I don't get it.
Speaker 1:I don't know thrill of adventure and all that, but like that's, that's, I don't know, cave diving, all that contortion stuff, absolutely not. Just no, no, I mean I'm a big guy in general, I'm not fit in 10 inches or anything but like oh my God, absolutely Take off the tank. No, what are you silly, what are you goofy? Get out of here. Yeah, yeah, don't do drugs, like what are you doing?
Speaker 2:Oh, speaking of drugs, I guess, for what it's worth, I should have said this earlier. Ben was on some prescription medications for depression and anxiety at the time of his disappearance. That's just one fact I left out.
Speaker 1:I don't know, maybe a contributing factor, who knows?
Speaker 2:But yeah, some people point to that. As you know, if he took his own life was he depressed? I mean he was clearly going through things.
Speaker 1:So I do not know that is. That is crazy, though A don't do that, Don't go into caves. Don't go into water caves.
Speaker 2:Don't do it.
Speaker 1:B don't get into arguments with men who kidnap people.
Speaker 2:Don't do it.
Speaker 1:Don't do it.
Speaker 2:Nope.
Speaker 1:Nope C don't. I don't have a third one.
Speaker 2:Don't put your friend in a bathtub to go to sleep if they have a concussion or a head injury of any kind. They need to be awake every two hours. You have to monitor them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or you know, call an ambulance, go to the hospital.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do that, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Or here's a crazy theory it was the guy who took Lowell home was actually Ben, who did successfully restart his life, and he killed Lowell as an act of revenge.
Speaker 2:You know what's interesting? They never did release the name of the friend or whoever who checked on him or who found him right.
Speaker 1:They didn't. No, they didn't. They didn't. It was just Ben with a fake mustache.
Speaker 2:Yeah, check it out. So what does this say here? Kelly remained comatose and was eventually placed in hospice care where he died the following month. The Holmes County Sheriff's Office, which had been had also been the lead agency investigating the McDaniel disappearance, implied it had not gotten the full story of what had occurred the night of Kelly's injury and that it had some questions it wanted answered. However, police would not name the individuals who had taken Kelly home and who had found him in the morning. The Sheriff's Office also refused to release the autopsy report to the Northwest Florida Daily News, despite its status as a public record under the Florida Sunshine Law. It claimed that release of the report would compromise an ongoing investigation.
Speaker 1:And then nothing more developed from it.
Speaker 2:Nope, Not that I've seen. Oh no, not that I've seen.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I mean, it could have also just been a crime of opportunity. You know, manager falls down and busts his head and you're like, hey, I know what we do. Let's stuff him in the tub at his house.
Speaker 2:And what just hope? That hope that it's a concussion and that he doesn't know and hope that he dies, who knows?
Speaker 1:Or again, they're just idiots.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of question marks in this case, but it's worth saying that Ben McDaniel was legally declared dead in 2013.
Speaker 1:Okay, Just three years.
Speaker 2:Three years after he went missing, and that was 10 years ago, so he's missing for 13 years.
Speaker 1:Well, poor bastard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean that's the case.
Speaker 1:And a great case of what. Oh, thank you very much, Megan, for having me on your podcast. It was fantastic.
Speaker 2:Brian, I got to say thank you for being here. Thank you for being on this podcast has been approved by skipper the cat. It's kippy, I'm scared.